Yes, you. Firstly, for this:
…and then for the “I Don’t Support Breast Feeding in Public” Facebook group.
But, let’s assume for one second that you’re simply an ill-educated fool who doesn’t have a clue about babies feeding, and break down every single word of your stupid Facebook group to give you a little education:
I am not a mother myself and I was breast fed as a child. In public though I was given a bottle. I had a bottle since day one. I simply switched back and forth between breast feeding and a bottle.
Well done. Your mother risked nipple confusion because she was a prude. Nipple confusion, caused by the totally different suckling method between bottles and the breast, that can cause a baby to totally reject the breast. And what happens if she rejects the breast? No more breast milk. Yay, score one to the formula companies!
I do not believe I should have to watch other woman breast feed.
I do not believe I should have to watch fat people jiggle their bellies out of the top of their tight-fitting clothes. I do not believe I should have to watch teenagers chewing gum like cows chew cud. I do not believe I should have to watch couples sticking their tongues down each other’s throats. But they do, and I live with it, because it’s none of my fucking business. It doesn’t harm me, therefore I “live and let live”.
There are private lounges, bathrooms, and other private area where you can go if you have to breast feed.
Some places have private facilities where breastfeeding can be done. Some of these places are too hot, too cold, too smelly, too uncomfortable for me to even consider going in them. I don’t see why any breastfeeding mother should have to put up with that for the sake of one or two prudes.
As for bathrooms – do you eat in the bathroom? Do you consume food in a room where bacteria lingers for hours on every surface after a toilet is flushed? “If you flush with the lid up, a polluted plume of bacteria and water vapour erupts out of the flushing toilet bowl. The polluted water particles float for a few hours around your bathroom before they all land.
“
Otherwise I feel you can give them a bottle. [..] If the child is fussy or hungry enough it will take the bottle or give it a pacifier.
And what if the child will take neither a bottle or a pacifier? My daughter does not know HOW to drink out of a bottle. She has no need to, therefore has never learned. If you place a bottle in her mouth, she sticks her tongue out and tries to make a back-forth motion with her tongue as she would to remove milk from the breast. This achieves nothing with a bottle, and would serve to frustrate her further if she was “fussy or hungry enough”. Likewise, she will not take a dummy/pacifier, and it’s easy to see why.
Let’s suppose, though, that Isabel is unique. That she’s the only baby in the world that cannot drink from a man-made nipple on a man-made bottle. What are all of these babies who’re out in public going to drink? Breastmilk? Not all mothers can express milk. It’s hard work. Imagine having your breast placed inside a hard plastic funnel, and your nipple tugged at unforgivingly by a stream of air powerful enough to pull your eyeball out. Yeah, I’m going to sit there and do that every time I need to nip to the shop just in case Isabel needs a feed… not. Of course, there’s an alternative, formula! Except that it’s inadequate and unnecessary when there are large milky breasts just waiting to be emptied.
The child will not starve to death in a few short hours.
A newborn infant has a stomach roughly the size of a marble/walnut (little people, little bellies). Furthermore, breast milk is digested rapidly; more quickly than artificial milk. It takes roughly 20 minutes for a baby to make use of that lovely, healthy milk. It makes sense, therefore, that it would require frequent small filings to keep a baby from going hungry. As the baby grows so does the stomach, but this is a slow process, and infants are designed to graze at the breast constantly (much like adults graze on snack food constantly, but we don’t expect them to eat in a bathroom).
It’s only in the West that we try and push a baby to go hours between feedings. No, a child will not starve to death in a “few short hours”, but a child does not know the meaning of “few short hours” and a baby that is hungry enough to cry for food needs it there and then, not in 3 hours time. Or would you rather listen to a hungry baby crying, wailing pitifully because its only source of nutrition is gone?
Anyone who says yes to that has clearly never heard a baby crying for food.
I don’t think I should have to watch you breast feed in front of me.
So turn around?
Breast feeding may be natural, but so is peeing and so is sex.
Have you ever tried to make an infant hold in their pee? It’s like asking them to wait for milk. It’s impossible. They have the need and the desire to urinate (or drink) now now now. They are not adults. Applying adult logic such as “suck it up, I’m to prude to watch you pee!” to a baby or a small child is just as stupid as “suck it up, I’m too prude to watch you eat!” hence why babies have diapers (nappies). So, while you can hold your full bladder, or your empty stomach for “a few short hours”, a baby cannot hold it for that long.
And if you can’t wait until you get home to have sex? See a doctor.
My baby’s needs are more important to me than your stupid, immature objections to a woman breastfeeding. If you don’t like it, look away.
03 Jun at 9:20 am
Right on Jem! I’m not a mother, but I see nothing wrong with public breastfeeding. An infant that’s hungry should be fed, be damned anyone who has a problem with it.
03 Jun at 9:23 am
What a load of nasty, childish nonsense from someone who has probably never come into contact with a baby. I have nothing to add as you’ve debunked all of her comments perfectly.
Thank you for exposing her, Jem.
03 Jun at 9:35 am
Ha, this blog actually made me laugh because, when I saw all of this being written on Twitter last night, I was thinking most of the things that are here.
Breastfeeding in public doesn’t particularly bother me, but I don’t sit and stare at it either. It’s not like it’s thrust directly in front of people, they have the ability to look the other way.
"And if you can’t wait until you get home to have sex? See a doctor."
This particularly made me laugh. Sex might be natural, but when do you expect to see two people at it as you walk down the street or sit in a restaurant? I think comparing having sex in public to breastfeeding is kind of ridiculous.
03 Jun at 9:35 am
I completely agree with you! I find it so ludicrous that people get offended over public breastfeeding. It’s like the whole ‘breasts are for sex, not feeding babies’ thing that I’ve heard a few people mention. They are clearly backwards.
03 Jun at 9:44 am
Didn’t her mum teach her that staring (at women breastfeeding) is rude? I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. No one is forced to look at it and why would you? I don’t like being stared at while eating either
03 Jun at 9:48 am
I’m not a mother and I don’t actually ever intend to be but even if I were I don’t think I’d be able to breastfeed in public… I’d be the prude :) But I don’t care if women do though. It is their choice if they want too.
03 Jun at 9:53 am
No doubt the likes of her would rather than you left the baby to scream because he or she was hungry…oh wait, then they would probably start whining on about how much noise the baby made and demand you remove ‘it’ and go elsewhere.
People like this make me sick, they expect everyone to pander to their needs wants and desires yet are never prepared to do a damned thing for anyone else.
As you quite rightly stated Jem, if seeing the most natural thing in the world offends you…go stare somewhere else, If I can turn and look at something more interesting rather than have to watch the youth of today, (or worse have to listen to them)…then so can everyone else!
I told a health visitor the same thing when I was once asked to "feed behind a curtain to avoid upsetting the bottlefeeders" HA! She was told that if those that choose not to have a problem, then they should DEAL with it, and promptly carried on feeding my baby. That was IN a baby clinic btw, what hope do breastfeeders have in getting support when hypocrites like this exist everywhere you look?
03 Jun at 10:12 am
I saw a woman standing outside boots yesterday, breastfeeding, with a whole square full of people around her. All I could think was good on you! and I saw no nipple at all! just happy baby!
I really don’t see whats wrong with breast feeding. Obviously you dont stand in front a group of people and whip them out but its a natural thing!
03 Jun at 10:20 am
I find it really appalling that you were asked to do that, Mumblies. I was until very recently a bottle feeder and never had any problem with breastfeeding taking place in public or near me. In fact, it was quite nice when it did happen as I would enjoy chatting to the mother as we both fed our babies.
03 Jun at 10:26 am
FANTASTIC post. I agree with you 100%. Sometimes I wish we could do away with "BREASTfeeding" and call it FEEDING.
I am also very tired of people equating a baby nursing to fecal matter, urine, and sexual intercourse. A baby eating has nothing to do with a vagina, penis, or anus (sorry to be blunt).
03 Jun at 11:05 am
Beautiful post Jem! I cannot not agree with you.
I love how she thinks that breastfeeding is as intimate as sex. Sure it is intimate, but then again it’s not in the romantic sense. This is a mother-child bond which no one can ever replace.
The idiot is too oblivious to the real world whereby breast feeding is encouraged because it’s wayyyyyy better than bottled milk. I always feel happy whenever I see someone breastfeed. I somewhat wish that I was breastfed more, simply because I used to drink a lot of milk when I was a baby but now I completely reject other forms of milk like powder and bottled ones (mentally). I try to force them down sometimes, but my natural reflex is to get it out of my system, which is quite a pity.
03 Jun at 11:39 am
*High five*
These people are just stupid. Babies need to eat and they deserve to eat food that nourishes them body and soul- not some stupid canned dried baby cow food. I was thrilled to see both my sister and her friend breastfeeding their babies in front of about 60 friends and family on the weekend, with not even a thought to covering anything up. No one said a word- Lucky because I would have dumped the potato salad on the first person to pass comment.
03 Jun at 12:14 pm
Nasty, vile, opinionated teenage brat. From her Twitter and blog, I’d say she needs to deal with her own body shame and emotional problems before imposing her grossly uneducated views on more confident, informed women.
03 Jun at 12:51 pm
There are a lot of "natural" things that some people don’t want to see.
Apparently, you with your breast out is one of them.
I guess it’s hurtful to you.
But, your "It doesn’t harm me, therefore I live and let live." was really all the response their exercise of the free speech needed.
03 Jun at 1:03 pm
You certainly have a point, and the woman sounded a bit harsh (so do you). I guess it’s a matter of both people looking the other way and ignoring it. I personally don’t like seeing women breastfeeding, but not for the action itself, but out of other beliefs and opinions that don’t have to do with breastfeeding, but feminism and motherhood. Breastfeeding is not nasty, but there are places and moments for everything. I don’t think many people would like to see some huge breasts while trying to eat their meal. Call me a prude all you want, but it’s possible to consider the necessities of the child, the mother and whoever they interact with at the same time.
03 Jun at 1:06 pm
Great post! The first time I nursed my son in public, I was expecting to have to defend his right to feed where and when he needed to. Surprisingly, I’ve gotten more rude comments about wearing him than nursing him!
03 Jun at 1:16 pm
(Randomer comment from someone who follows your blog as a result of using your Buffs code)
Awesome post and spot on. I’m not a mother – I can’t have kids – but the attitude people have towards FEEDING babies disgusts me. (I refuse to add ‘breast’ because it is unneeded. Feeding is feeding, regardless of whether it is done by breast or bottle. Maybe if we removed the b-word, people would actually see it for what it is and there’d be less of a fuss.) The way some people go on, you’d think nursing mamas were flashing their boobs like a Page-3 girl for all to see, when in reality, most are made to feel so ashamed they cover themselves and the baby with a scarf, shawl or baby blanket – I’ve even seen a clean unfolded terry nappy used. I can’t see how being covered is possibly comfortable for a baby, especially in hot weather. And newsflash for prudes – the nipple is in the baby’s mouth anyway, so all you actually see is a little skin, no worse than those low-cut tops so many women are fond of.
The one that really grinds my gears is the ‘take your baby in the toilet and feed it’. I actually took a guy’s tray off him in McDonalds when he was harassing some poor woman about feeding her baby, trying to physically shove her in the disabled bathroom with his free hand. He thought I was defending his viewpoint, but when I could squeeze through in my wheelchair, I went in and put his tray on the toilet seat and invited him to eat there. One guess what his response was.
03 Jun at 2:08 pm
I love these "I shouldn’t be forced to watch this and that" comments… How about trying to watch elsewhere? Didn’t anyone tell them that staring is rude anyway?
Well I can’t say much more than just that I totally agree with you! I almost want own baby so I can go out to cause trauma to people are afraid of boobs.
*headdesk with this world*
03 Jun at 2:16 pm
Nothing much to add except that I bet her friends show more boob than a breastfeeding woman. She was probably upset because the guys were looking at the mom & not at her.
03 Jun at 2:58 pm
Good post, totally agree with you. Babies and breasts are 2 of the most beautiful things in the world, anyone who has a problem with either of them needs help :)
03 Jun at 3:12 pm
The person who condemns breastfeeding has not been fed with mother’s milk at all ! A mother will not hesitate to feed her child if she prefers not feeding bottled milk.
03 Jun at 3:41 pm
I honestly cannot believe that people are this stupid.
03 Jun at 3:58 pm
I fucking love you Jem!!!
03 Jun at 4:00 pm
Love the post, Jem. Nothing wrong with breastfeeding if you can do it. Breastfeeding is always better. The only time I have a problem with it is when the women just whip it out ?
Your post is wonderful, Jem. You really let her have it & you did it in a wonderful informative way. Way to go!
03 Jun at 4:01 pm
I’m not a mother but I don’t see anything wrong or unnatural with breastfeeding or breastfeeding in public. I don’t get how some people can equate breastfeeding with public urination or sex in public places because they are just incomparable!
03 Jun at 4:57 pm
I would happily agree with you on every point if you weren’t giving a backhanded insult to fat people. Thanks for that.
03 Jun at 5:41 pm
Well, said, ma’am (what’s the proper form of address for a baroness?).
I don’t see why people are so damned bothered by breastfeeding. Every woman I’ve known who was breastfeeding was doing it discreetly (mostly because babies get distracted if there’s a lot of noise and fuss). They aren’t naked or doing a show. They’re just sitting there, doing something normal.
Anyway, anything that includes "large milky breasts" shouldn’t be frowned upon.
03 Jun at 5:42 pm
Have you ever tried to make a fucking twat keep her ignorant pie-hole shut? It’s like asking them to become tolerant and considerate of someone other than themselves. It’s impossible. 8)
03 Jun at 6:03 pm
I’m all about more boobs in public, so rock on.
03 Jun at 7:12 pm
Well you know my stance on breastfeeding in public, but at the end of the day one can always look the other way. Maybe someone forced the girl to watch a "public" breastfeeding? She might have had some traumatizing experiences :P
03 Jun at 8:43 pm
Agreed, as far as all of your well-reasoned points, and I am a long-term nurser myself. I do feel angry when I see comments such as the ones you’ve pointed out.
I notice though that both the posts (or rather the post and the group) are from…well, children. And it seems like I have seen a lot of similar tweets and posts that (it turns out) are also from…children, when I look at their profiles. Not always, but often enough.
Now obviously they’re wrong, and self-centered, and ignorant, etc. But that’s developmentally typical of teenagers. And I think that a lot of these things are due to absolutely _no_ exposure to any kind of healthy attitude about reproduction/babycare.
Therefore, I worry that now the only exposure many such ignorant teenagers are going to have with lactivism is one of public shaming, blaming, and anger, which I guarantee is likely to just polarize the reactive little things.
Not that the attitudes they express are not shameful and angrifying–they are–but I betcha anything they are simply parroting what their parents say at the dinner table.
It seems like it would make more sense to say whatever corrective things we have to say to them in a way that they might actually have a chance of listening–i.e. what would you say to your own little sister, daughter, niece etc. if they had been raised away from you, and now needed to learn a new way? Maybe in a way that actually appeals to them as allies?
Also, being self-centered teenagers, they are so highly anxious about their own social status that (typically) they will try to enforce conformity in others’ behavior as well. Being critical of others gets them social rewards.
*The only way to truly address this in _anyone_ is to help them be more accepting of themselves, which (surprise!) helps them be more accepting of others.*
I’m just not sure I’m super comfortable with calling a 16-year-old a fucking twat, no matter how repulsive and twattish her attitude.
03 Jun at 9:01 pm
I fully agree with you, but the amount of posts on Twitter and apparently by email, etc., towards the girl who said that in the first place aren’t really fair, imo.
I’m not saying either is wrong – honestly I agree with your ideas, mainly – but srsly, she’s 16, I think calling her a fucking twat and directing hateful messages at her all day is pushing it a bit, no? I’m only 15 and even I can see that’s wrong. I know all the messages aren’t from you, but I think maybe next time, a less harsh way of getting your point across might work.
03 Jun at 9:06 pm
Sophie, I am not responsible for other people’s words or actions, only my own. I’ve not made hateful messages towards her "all day", unless you count posting breastfeeding facts on twitter "hateful"?
But, yes, I called her a fucking twat. And I’d do it again, because I don’t think her being 16 (I’m sure she told me a while back she is 17?) excuses her calling other people sick, nasty, dirty and/or bitch for feeding their infants in public.
03 Jun at 9:27 pm
I don’t really like breast feeding in public, but i’m still just a kid. you bring up valid points though at the same time writing this at all was really immature. jen never targeted you, she never even spoke to you. ok, she hurt your feelings. i think she’s apologized for hurting anyone’s feelings on twitter – if not, i don’t think she would mind apologizing. this though, this was just awful and pathetic. it was really childish of you as an adult and parent.
i think you should rethink your actions and face the fact that you were wrong. you acted out irrationally. jen hurt your feelings but she never targeted you. as she’s said, you does have the freedom to speak her mind even if it hurts you. on the other hand though you hurt jen mentally, emotionally and you’re targeting her. that isn’t right or fair!
you should be an adult and walk away, not push people to suicide.
jen, i love you! don’t let this silly woman get you down!
03 Jun at 10:35 pm
"Except that it’s inadequate and unnecessary when there are large milky breasts just waiting to be emptied." Mmmm yum
Whenever I see a mother breastfeeding, it brings tears to my eyes because I hope one day I can do that [in public] as well. There is just something so natural and touching about a mother feeding her newborn child. Sounds corny, but I think it’s magical!
These days, however, there is nothing touching about young retarded mothers letting their babies cry for hours because they don’t "feel like" feeding them. :(
03 Jun at 10:56 pm
Random small comment: For some reason, seeing someone breast feed at a dinner table with me grosses me out. If they do it any other place in the world, it doesn’t bother me one bit. Hell, if they even just sort of turned around so I wasn’t looking at a boob on a little mouth while I was eating, it wouldn’t bother me.
I don’t freak out, though. It’s some strange little thing I have, for some reason it makes my stomach curl. It’s not because I think it’s wrong (on the contrary) or that they shouldn’t be allowed to do it in public, it’s just some weird little personal thing. *shrug*
04 Jun at 3:02 am
So… I don’t disagree with you because as you well know, I breastfeed, but I also don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world that I occasionally pump so I can give Wesley a bottle if I’m going to be out. (Work meetings, etc.) I have to teach him to take a bottle now because maternity leave in the US is total crap and I have (yes, have, not want) to go back to work in a week, so he needs to know how to eat from a bottle. So yes, I risk nipple confusion for the sake of him being able to eat once I’m back at work. *shrugs* You do what you’ve gotta do, right?
Interestingly, I feel much less weird about breastfeeding in public than I thought I would. If I’m with a group, I just warn them that I will try not to flash my boob at them and then I throw a light blanket over my shoulder and have at it. Wesley is a quiet eater (no smacking noises or snuffling or anything) so I don’t consider it intrusive and nobody’s said anything bad to me about it, thank goodness!
04 Jun at 3:20 am
I don’t breast feeding in public is anything wrong. We should respect mothers. All of us were fed by our mothers, unless you were given birth by a cow. Breast-feeding a little baby doesn’t hurt anyone.
04 Jun at 8:01 am
> jen never targeted you
She targeted every mother who breastfeeds in public the second she created that Facebook group.
*plays tiny violin*
04 Jun at 9:55 am
^^ Not to mention advocates of public breastfeeding. If you can’t handle your opinions and insults being thrown back at you when someone disagrees, then maybe you shouldn’t speak in the first place. Especially if it’s a controversial topic that is likely to have a lot of backlash.
She called people bitches, monsters, downright gross, nasty, disgusting and sick and said she would ‘laugh at our motherless children’ when we go to jail after she had committed suicide, and that any woman who needs to brestfeed their child should ‘go home or use the bathroom’… I never said anything remotely as insulting as that, but /I’m/ the harassing cyberbully for telling /her/ to go eat in the bathroom next time she’s hungry? Ha ha ha ha.
04 Jun at 2:54 pm
I do agree with Jem that those girls were targeting all BFing mothers. It was hate speech, whether they initially thought of it that way or not (like any other prejudice).
And as a prejudice specialist, I can tell you that this is one aspect of anti-woman discrimination: turning women against other women who aren’t toeing the line of what women "should" be. That is to say, White, 18-23, primarily sexual in nature, preternaturally "beautiful", and always available.
Which means that women doing everyday real-life things (like feeding a baby, or otherwise having a physical, usable body in a non-sexual way) are "gross" and deserving of a putdown. (‘Cause being a mom is so non-sexy! Eewww! :-P)
It would be nice if we could get such girls out of this mindset _before_ they turn 23, but that’s usually the age it starts dissolving.
04 Jun at 3:59 pm
I went to the website of the original post, she’s 16 years old. What the fuck would she know about anything? At 16 I didn’t honestly know half the shit I thought I knew, and I thought I knew everything.
It’s idiotic for anyone to think that they can compare breastfeeding to sex as though you’re getting off on your baby sucking on your nipple the same way you would get off on a man fondling your nipples. It’s disgusting for someone to even think they are remotely the same.
You’ve made some awesome, right-on points. I can’t really say anything else that you already haven’t.
04 Jun at 4:06 pm
‘I think women who breastfeed in public are nasty!!’ I think people who forget grammar basics are irritating. Just had to say that.
And as for the breastfeeding thing, I think anyone should be able to feed their child how they want to. Though people are entitled to their own opinions as well….
xx
04 Jun at 5:50 pm
"It kind of seems like they’re trying to rub their rights in your face."
By far the stupidest comment I have ever read.
This girl seriously needs to grow up, fair enough she doesn’t like it but she has no right telling a mother to go feed their child in a bathroom. Like I said on the page (before she deleted my comment), if she has a problem with it, why should the mother move away?
04 Jun at 7:40 pm
I’ve not had chance to get back to all commenters yet, but they have all been read. Thank you, in particular, to Dr. Liz for sharing her knowledge and experience.
04 Jun at 9:53 pm
Seeing your tweets yesterday was awesome, hands down, but at the same time I am so appalled that people are debating about breastfeeding an infant. WHY IS THAT SOMETHING WE ARE DEBATING ABOUT? IT SHOULDN’T BE A DEBATE.
I am so baffled by people and societies the planet over these days, really. It’s horrible to think that people are going around debating about HOW A MOTHER CHOOSES TO FEED HER OWN INFANT versus stuff like war, mass starvation/hunger, preventable diseases like measles killing thousands of kids every year in Africa, oil spewing out into the ocean and killing everything in sight, poverty still existing en mass in some of the "wealthiest" countries in the world, ETC ETC ETC.
So yeah. I mean…what did women do to feed their infants back in like the 1600s? Did they go in a public washroom and do it? Were people standing around in the streets yelling at crowds about how disgusting and wrong it was to see a woman feeding her child in the way nature built her to do it? Like. I thought that’s what boobs were for? They’re not just on our bodies to be put into push-up bras and paraded around for attractiveness. They’re there because they serve a purpose that is beyond fundamental: they feed an infant because the infant cannot feed themselves.
Yeah idk. It’s not just teens that have this issue, sadly. I think it’s all just a product of sociological "standards" and "expectations" mixed with all the faux-evolution of human civilization. But I could go on about that forever. It’s sad the entire way around, but honestly I am extremely EXTREMELY happy and proud of you – and all the other moms who have done something similar – for putting your opinions out there like this. This is something that is beyond ridiculous and shouldn’t be debated about anyway, as I said originally, so even saying that is enough.
Big props to you, Jem, for doing this. Your little girl is going to have one heck of a resume by the time she’s 10 if you keep this stuff up! :D DO IT!!!! <3>
05 Jun at 1:35 am
Very well put!! Some people need to grow up and realize that their mothers probably breast fed them out in public at some point in their lives. It’s disappointing to see the new generation of kids being so disrespectful and thoughtless.
05 Jun at 1:47 pm
Like everyone else has said, good points. I’m not sure about my *absolute* stance on this because I don’t recall having seen any woman breastfeed in public. But I’m leaning more towards having the freedom to do so.
And why does that stupid girl’s website keep prompting me for my Twitter username & password on every page…?
05 Jun at 8:49 pm
I can not understand the comments these people are making. I can’t even grasp the fact that they are serious. Breast feeding has been done for as long as there have been mammals. That’s what makes them stand out from the other animals. We are, whether we like it or not, part of the mammal family. It’s still the most natural thing to do. Don’t they understand this? Don’t they understand that this is what our boobs are for?
Around here there are some mother striving for better and more places where they can breast feed they children. I know that a group of them has managed to get a spot in the cafe at the local library (yes, there’s a cafe at the local library here). It’s right in the center of the city so if they go shopping with their baby and the baby gets hungry, they can drop by the library. I know one of these mothers who has been working on this and she’s so happy with this result. It’s been helping a lot of mothers so far.
06 Jun at 5:25 pm
Jem,
As a mother, I too can understand how you feel in this situation. However, your actions towards it lead a young girl to suicide – which I have seen you encourage. So I must ask you, how would you feel if your daughter was murdered by another human being, an adult no less, and the police said there was nothing they could do? The adult was free because the adult technically did not wrap the rope around the child’s neck. The adult did not cut the child’s wrists. The child committed suicide, yes, but it was because of an adult’s foolish actions. Sadly, even though the adult pushed her to the suicide, the adult will not be punished.
How would you feel know your daughters murderer got away, completely unharmed and free? Is this really OK to you? I must know.
If this isn’t OK; if you would be devastated to have this happen to your own daughter, then why are you pushing another mother into this exact same situation? As a mother, how can you so brutally hurt another child?
As a few have pointed out, Jennifer said some very hurtful things, but it was all within her rights as an American citizen. According to a little Google research (and a bit of questions to my husband), I have found that Jennifer has not done anything technically wrong. She was merely speaking under the Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression laws. She was not targeting or attacking a specific group or person.
Please, do not say she was attacking women who breast feed in public. According to Google, what Jennifer did is not considered targeting or attacking a specific group. A specific group would be using an organization name, a person(s) name, or other such specific. Jennifer did not ever use names.
As hurtful as her words may have been, she did not target or attack anyone specifically and so, she didn’t break any laws. You did. You went beyond Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression. You directly and specifically targeted and then attacked a young girl.
If this was your daughter, going through all this, all because she wanted to freely express herself, how would you feel? Would you be OK with the fact that your daughter was murderer because she had feeling different then another? Would you find it OK to know that your daughter was murdered just because she happened to hurt another person’s feelings?
I understand that Jennifer’s words hurt. I have one daughter with another on the way. I also breast feed in public. I do respect Jennifer’s feelings though and as a mother I try to be understanding and supportive. Like a mother should be.
You were not teaching Jennifer to chose her words more carefully. You simply created an army and attacked. You may have a bigger army then her, but your heart is nothing like hers. Jennifer does a lot for so many people. Once in a while she likes to think of her own life and her own feelings. Sometimes she doesn’t chose her words wisely but as a mother you’re supposed to teach children what’s right and wrong. You don’t attack them.
If I may be so bold as to question, do you beat your daughter? When Isabel does something wrong, do you get the family and friends together to attack your daughter? Is child abuse OK where you come from? If you don’t think this is OK, then why are you doing this to a child?
No, you’re not physically attacking a child, you’re doing something much worse. You’re leaving an already terrified, paranoid, and mentally unstable little girl in a suicidal state. You are attacking her mind, her health, her emotions, and her entire being. This is an awful thing for a mother do to.
As a parent you should try to understand. Yes, Jennifer needs to learn how to chose her words more wisely, but sadly, so do you. If you treat or plan to treat Isabel this way, then I pray to Buddah that social services come quickly. As much as it would hurt you and the child to be taken away, maybe at least then, Isabel wouldn’t have to go through the horrible abuse you are putting Jennifer through.
With all my heart, Jem, I think you need to stop and think about your actions and the consequences your actions may have. Your actions are creating could soon create a horrible effect. Even if you think, Jennifer’s life is worthless, she is still a human being and is worth just as much as your precious angel, Isabel. If you wouldn’t treat your own daughter this cruelly, then you need to step back and think about what you’re doing to Jennifer.
Isabel and Jennifer are both daughters and they are both human beings who even when they do something you don’t like, they deserve to be helped, not attacked.
My last words to you are this, if you really think of yourself as a real mother, a good mother, and a loving mother, then think about your actions before it’s too late. You wouldn’t want your daughter to find out later in life that her own mother, her hero, caused the suicide of another young girl. With the Internet now-a-days, if Jennifer does commit suicide because of your actions, Isabel will find out and the only one in your life who will truly suffer will be Isabel, not you. Think about that.
06 Jun at 7:47 pm
"your actions towards it lead a young girl to suicide – which I have seen you encourage"
Really, where would this encouragement be?
I’m sure you wrote this bullshit attempt at guilt-tripping with the best of intentions, and I’d feel sorry for Jennifer were it not for the fact that not a day has gone by where she hadn’t tweeted about committing suicide. She talked of it when she found out her host was merging/being bought by another and they weren’t giving her enough free shit; she talked of it after I said I wasn’t in need of her PC help because I was an ex-techie (and offered thanks anyway); she talked of it when another blogger failed to return her comments fast enough. To blame me for this girl’s state of mind is at best far-fetched and at worst libelous!
I have no need to ‘create an army and attack’, as my readers and twitter followers are remarkably blessed with free will. Furthermore, both Twitter and Facebook have some very pro-breastfeeding users, several of whom had already seen Jennifer’s ridiculous remarks before I’d even tirred from my bed. Jennifer brought the response upon herself. I didn’t tweet about how nasty public breastfeeding was or create an anti-breastfeeding group; she did.
I am as entitled to my opinion of Jennifer (a fucking twat) as she is for the her opinion of breastfeeding in public.
Ps. Your anonymous e-mail account does fuck all to protect you here, and it’s only because of my generous mood that I’ve allowed your comment at all.
06 Jun at 7:58 pm
*Sighs*
All of these people saying Jem should not be attacking or ‘targeting’ this girl surely do not take into account she put her opinion on a website in the PUBLIC domain. It will get commented upon, no matter what.
It’s not like this girl is 13 years or younger, she’s 16/17 whatever age she is, she is basically a young adult. In the online world, no one is safe from opinions, so unless you truly did not deserve it, take it and move on. It’s ONLY an online opinion. When I was 16 and writing on my now non existant blog, if I put up content of debate, I knew to expect backlash and I knew I had to take anything I got. You didn’t see the people who commented on my blog going on the other person’s blog and defending me on my behalf, like some have done here, because that’s just pathetic.
In other words, Jem called this girl’s ignorance out and it’s not like she’s at an age where she wouldn’t understand any of it. Breastfeeding is a natural thing and sometimes, mothers may have to do it in a public place. You just have to walk on by and get over it sadly. I mean, i’d rather not have to go online and see bratty teenagers thinking they’re the best with their opinions, but I just click away from it, shake my head and go onto something else.
06 Jun at 8:24 pm
How kind of whoever she is to give you such a good opportunity to explain the whys and wherefores of breastfeeding. I never really understand why people get so aerated about harmless things that don’t affect them, and clearly no-one’s told her it’s rude to stare, which she must be doing to get so disgusted. She’ll be a mum one day, if she doesn’t find every natural function disgusting, and then we’ll see how neatly her ideas about bottles and pacifiers and hungry babies work out.
06 Jun at 10:02 pm
I resent being told that I am part of some army who was ordered to attack this girl. I attacked her /opinions/ because like Jem said, I am blessed with free will (and happened to stumble across her opinions, through Jem no less, but Jem doesn’t command me – my reaction and responses were purely invoked by Jennifer’s own words :P), and because like you said, Jinnienn, I have freedom of speech. Just like Jennifer.
She is not such a little girl as she would have you believe, so stop giving her excuses to act like one by treating her like one – she needs to grow up. Sixteen or seventeen, whatever age she has chosen to be today, is more than old enough to understand and handle the consequences of her actions. She is not five, and she cannot attempt (and fail) to hide behind her age forever. I expect that once she turns eighteen she will continue to tell people that she is sixteen every time she gets into a scrape – then threaten suicide for good measure!
I could add more, but I want to go and watch Kung Fu Hustle. But for the record, you can’t compare attacking someone’s opinions over t’internets to physically beating your own daughter, psh.
06 Jun at 10:13 pm
Interesting thing to stumble upon with when I’m a couple of weeks away of giving birth. I plan on breastfeeding, so I hope if/when I have to do it in public, I don’t encounter such an ignorant person. Great post!
06 Jun at 10:19 pm
‘According to Google, what Jennifer did is not considered targeting or attacking a specific group. A specific group would be using an organization name, a person(s) name, or other such specific. Jennifer did not ever use names.’
I’m sorry Jinnien, I wasn’t aware that attacking an entire group of people (every mother who breastfeeds in public) was perfectly ok so long as you don’t name names.
This completely turns my views on racism upside-down. So long as you don’t name names you can attack whoever you want!
And I see that physical and verbal attacking are the same now? Excellent.
…So who’s up for some genocide then? Anyone? It’s apparently perfectly legal.
07 Jun at 2:07 am
Katrina,
Yes, what Jennifer posted was on a public domain. Saying that, you must understand that Jennifer did nothing illegal. While Jem did. Targeting and attacking a specific person is illegal in all forms, not to mention to this extent which is just awful and childish.
Age isn’t really a big deal, as Jennifer could 34 and this would still be illegal.
So I ask you, is your opinion on something bratty? Just because your opinion on it is opposite on the world? That makes the opinion bratty and ignorant? No, not at all. It means that your opinion is frowned upon, it does not, under any circumstances mean the person is a brat or ignorant. If you think that, then shame on you.
The United Sates of America is a free country where people are allowed to express themselves in all way as long as it does not break the law. The citizens are free to talk about their opinions of the law, religion, and other as long as they do not do anything to break the law. Talking and expressing ones feelings about the law fall under the Freedom of Speech laws and Freedom of Expression.
So shame on you for calling someone a brat or ignorant just because they speak and think about things in a different manner then you do. That’s really quite sad.
================
Jem,
The encouragement is clear. You posted this horribly cruel blog knowing Jennifer was upset about the whole thing. I have you even read this blog or looked at the awful effect it has had? Then again, maybe you don’t see anything past your one way vision. You don’t see, or simply don’t want to see the carnage or damage your unnecessary words have caused.
I do believe you should learn the difference between joking and reality. When someone is disappointed about something going wrong they often say foolish things like, "I should just drop dead." or "I wish everyone would just die." but it’s clear that they’re just disappointed. At the moment they feel like those would be the best solutions.
This is not a joke though. You have turned something that could have been easily forgotten into a very dangerous reality. It’s not about making you feel bad, it’s far beyond that now. It’s about taking action to make you see the dangers of the reality that you have caused. When you send a child to bed crying, when you make her pick up that blade that shows that this is not in any form a joke.
Before you say "She’s cutting herself for attention…" stop. Right there just stop. Some children do it for attention and one day they cut too deep before they can even realize what has happened it’s over and too late. For attention or not, it’s still something serious and something at this moment, only you can prevent.
i think, as an adult, you should take responsibility for your actions. Maybe you cannot tell the difference between Jennifer’s seriousness and joking, but I can. I think you should either go talk to her (since you have a list of every different way too – you’ve listed most of them in this blog) or find some other way to stop this disaster.
As I stated, it’s not about trying to make you feel bad. I think you should stop avoiding the seriousness of this problem and face the facts of what you’re foolishness is doing.
Yes, but by the time you said anything, the conversation and topic had long been dropped. Instead of walking away, you chose to start tweeting about it and then post of this blog. You chose to start up a debate that had ended long before you came into the room. So consequentially, this is really all your fault isn’t it?
Jennifer chose to express herself within her legal rights. You chose to attack her and break the law. You may have had the right intention in mind, but you still broke the law and committed a felony punishable by law of the United States (even if you don’t live there).
You went beyond just stating you opinion though, Jem. This blog is targeting and attacking a young girl. Stating your opinion is fine. Attacking someone to the point of suicide is not.
Maybe you should think about your own daughter and about how you as a mother would feel if Isabel were to go through something as horrific as this. If you can’t bring yourself to face the reality and severity of your actions then I’ll be looking into calling United Kingdom’s Social Services group tonight about Isabel. They should be open on Monday, London time for me to call.
If you can abuse children online, whose to say you wouldn’t abuse your own daughter in real life. Just because you can not see the person you speak too online does not mean that they aren’t real people, with real lives, feelings, and emotions. When your daughter grows up and goes through this maybe then you will truly understand what it means to be a mother. It’s not all about breast feeding, taking care of the child, and throwing around your rights and authority. It’s also about being there and understanding. It’s about setting a good example, what you’re doing here is not a good example – for anyone.
I cannot trust you to not hurt your own child. If you can so happily hurt children online and not see the damage or your actions, then how can I – or anyone – believe you don’t hurt your child. So if this problem isn’t solved soon, I will be calling the United Kingdom’s Social Services group.
I wish the best for Isabel and her future. As for you, I pray that you will think like an adult for a few minutes and face the reality of whats going on here. This is not a game anymore like you seem to think. Two children’s lives are at stake – one of those children is your’s.
– My email is not anonymous is any way. I have it written plain as day. It’s the only email i use anymore and you’re welcome to send me a message with anything you wish if you don’t believe me.
07 Jun at 2:57 am
BUT IT’S BOOBS. OMG! BOOBS ARE EVIL, EVIL, NASTY THINGS. BOOBS ARE AUTOMATICALLY SEXUAL. BOOBS DON’T BELONG IN THE PUBLIC. EVEN WHEN NOT BEING USED SEXUALLY. BECAUSE THEY’RE BOOBS.
People are ignorant about a lot of things, unfortunately.
07 Jun at 4:52 am
Hello Jem! I’m a new visitor. Reading this blog just disturbs me. Currently, Jennifer was my old host and she is my best online friend. There is no need to take her comments and attack her the way you did. I mean you could’ve written this in a mean way and then edited it.
Yes, I know this is your website, which includes your opinions and ideas and beliefs. I understand that you are a pro for breastfeeding in public. I am, as well. People have feelings and if you wouldn’t say all of this offline then don’t say it online. Or if you wouldn’t say it in this manner offline, don’t say it in this manner online.
I have read through all of these comments and there are a few comments that really scare and just shock me. Read over the following to see what I am talking about.
" "your actions towards it lead a young girl to suicide – which I have seen you encourage"
Really, where would this encouragement be?"
Have you heard about the girl that killed herself because she was bullied? That is what you are acting like right now; a bully. I know we can all be bullies but there is a time and place for everything. Just because Jennifer posted this on her twitter and facebook and website doesn’t give you the right to go stalk her for it. Stalking also makes young teens commit suicide. I have heard many cases of this happening, so I have proof.
"I’m sure you wrote this bullshit attempt at guilt-tripping with the best of intentions, and I’d feel sorry for Jennifer were it not for the fact that not a day has gone by where she hadn’t tweeted about committing suicide. She talked of it when she found out her host was merging/being bought by another and they weren’t giving her enough free shit; she talked of it after I said I wasn’t in need of her PC help because I was an ex-techie (and offered thanks anyway); she talked of it when another blogger failed to return her comments fast enough. To blame me for this girl’s state of mind is at best far-fetched and at worst libelous!"
No one blamed you for her state of mind. Her state of mind is her state of mind. You need to chill out and calm down when replying to these comments. I know being a mom is tiring. I am one myself. It is tiring. All of the times you have to wake up early, all of the times you have to take the kid to day care and the price of day care, everything having to do with the baby is difficult. I get stressed out but after reading this I had to take a breather and clear my mind because I don’t want to start anything online. I’m not looking for a fight. I just want to help out my really close online friend because she should have to deal with this alone. No one is ever alone. Anyway, No one ever wanted you to feel guilty. We just want you to realize what you could cause. You could cause one of my best friends (online that is), a daughter, and maybe even a future wife and mother to kill herself because you are being self-centered and ignorant. She has the free will of talking about killing herself, for the first amendment says so, "Amendment 1- Freedom of Speech". Not only that, she has just as much right about talking about that, as you have the right of talking about how much you love your life and your baby. It’s the same thing, if you didn’t realize that before, please get a reality check.
"Which means that women doing everyday real-life things (like feeding a baby, or otherwise having a physical, usable body in a non-sexual way) are "gross" and deserving of a putdown. (‘Cause being a mom is so non-sexy! Eewww! :-P)"
Breastfeeding a baby is natural. ?
"Well done. Your mother risked nipple confusion because she was a prude. Nipple confusion, caused by the totally different suckling method between bottles and the breast, that can cause a baby to totally reject the breast. And what happens if she rejects the breast? No more breast milk. Yay, score one to the formula companies!"
No need to say it so condescendingly. There are ways to un-confuse your baby and let them breastfeed. But even if you don’t like the breast pump. You can do it once a week for about 3 hrs so that if you have to go out to a restaurant or the library or any place you can take a bottle with you. That is what was done with me when I was a baby and that is what I am doing with my child. If Erin (my daughter) gets confused between the bottle and my nipple and wants to suck on the bottle more then I’ll start bottle feeding her at an early age. There is no problem with that. It is completely natural and there is no harm to the baby besides needing braces when it grows older. What is so bad about formula’s anyway? There are some formulas out there that have the nutrients and vitamins a baby needs to develop. Eventually, you’ll have to stop breastfeeding because either the kid gets to old or you just are tired of breastfeeding the kid. So, no matter what, you’ll never get rid of that frustration you and your baby will have when switching from breast to bottle.
"Have you ever tried to make an infant hold in their pee? It’s like asking them to wait for milk. It’s impossible. They have the need and the desire to urinate (or drink) now now now. They are not adults. Applying adult logic such as "suck it up, I’m to prude to watch you pee!" to a baby or a small child is just as stupid as "suck it up, I’m too prude to watch you eat!" hence why babies have diapers (nappies). So, while you can hold your full bladder, or your empty stomach for "a few short hours", a baby cannot hold it for that long."
You can train the baby to go for hours at a time if you ignore the cries for food when you just fed them 3 hours ago. Yes, it hurts as a mother, but it is also easier when the baby can go to 5-6 hours without needing to be fed. It was frustrating for me at first to do this, but after I was finished, I am happy at the result. Erin will sleep for 5-6 hours at a time without needing to be fed. Which lets me sleep 5-6 hours without being woken up by a whine or a cry from her. We are sleeping better which is improving our moods.
"My baby’s needs are more important to me than your stupid, immature objections to a woman breastfeeding."
If that is so, then just ignore it. That is always an option. Although, you cannot take back what you have posted you can apologize for being so condescending about this. I mean, just because you are for breastfeeding in public doesn’t mean that you should just yell at her. I mean that never changes anyones mind. What if you were Jennifer? Would you like this? Probably not. Please, think of it in both shoes. I am not saying I have not gotten into stupid fights like these but I am saying that you can resolve this by saying you are sorry in your last blog and closing comments on this blog (maybe even deleting this blog entirely). There are other options than fighting about things. I know you know this, but please, take them into consideration when replying to comments and other blogs that people write. Jennifer was never there to be the butt of ridicule neither were you. Now, she has stopped posting about you and you need to stop posting anything about her as well. If you just unfollow her on twitter and delete her on facebook and just stop looking on her website, you guys will be fine. You are not forced to talk to anyone. It was an option you had from the beginning.
"If you don’t like it, look away."
I totally agree with this statement. I think that people should look away if they don’t like watching something. But, at the same time, they shouldn’t have to. Like Jennifer said, breastfeeding and sex are both natural. What if people were allowed to have sex in public. We would probably be having this exact same conversation. You and I would be against it though. She (Jennifer) wasn’t saying that people need to have sex NOW NOW NOW. She was just saying that sex would be opposed if it were allowed in public, as well. I totally agree with some of the things that she has said as well.
Please take the other option that you have into consideration when replying to this comment. Thank you.
— Sarah Jones.
07 Jun at 7:37 am
" "
See, I’ve read my post, and I don’t see where I mentioned suicide at any point. I therefore have to conclude that you’re talking out of your ass.
If my calling Jennifer a fucking twat is against the law, I invite her to contact a solicitor (lawyer).
Oh, and you’re more than welcome to call social services (I’m sure when you say "Jem Turner on the interwebs!!!" they’ll know just who you mean). They’re free to pop by and visit … the only thing they’re likely to find is that I’ve not hoovered in the past couple of days, but I’m pretty such that’s not illegal or a symptom of child abuse/neglect.
—
Hello Sarah, welcome to my blog. Reading your comment just disturbs me! You are the sort of mother that I cringe at. The sort that thinks a baby is an object, a pet to be trained and made to conform to some society-imparted view of what a perfect baby is. You are EVERYTHING I never want to be as a parent.
""
How about increased risk of allergies, increased risk of SIDs, increased risk of breast cancers, increased risk of baby girls developing cancer later in life, lower IQ, increased risk of childhood diabetes, increased risk of certain childhood cancers, increased chance of obesity in later life… is that enough or should I go on?
""
Bottlefeeding isn’t natural, you idiot. It’s an adequate replacement if mum is unable to breastfeed and nothing more.
""
Your logic … fails me. The natural weaning age from the breast is around 4-5yrs; are you suggesting that at that point a child should be given a bottle? Or are you one of these fools who thinks that breast milk is only good to 6mo?
""
You fucking cunt. You have the nerve to come here, lecturing me for calling a grown woman a twat and you LEFT A BABY TO CRY TO MAKE YOURSELF HAPPY? You have no moral high ground, no fucking grounds to criticise me. Children aren’t animals; that you’d even type the words "train your baby" leave me struggling for words. Argh! Why am I surprised? This is the same person who thinks there’s nothing wrong with formula.
Fuck off. Just fuck off you sick bitch. You disgust me.
07 Jun at 11:50 am
5-6 HOURS WITHOUT FOOD? I am 19 years old and /I/ can’t even go 5-6 hours without food! That’s fucking ridiculous!
07 Jun at 1:21 pm
It’s interesting you should write this just because just a few days ago I was arguing with my mother and sister that babies have the right to feed anywhere. I just do not understand why people object. You don’t like how it looks? Then don’t look. The cheek of thinking it’s okay to go up to a nursing mother and ask her to stop is ridiculous. I don’t like to look at many things people do but that doesn’t give me the right to tell people to stop. I wonder if the same people object to men walking around with their shirts off. In either case your basically exposing the same parts but no, because breasts have being sexualised by society they must be hidden at all times, even for something as innocent and necessary as feeding a child. Double standards like that really bother me.
As for this whole "free speech!" bullshit people love to scream when they get called on an opinion – yes you have the right to say what ever pops into your lovely little head but likewise we have the right to challenge you and tell you it’s a stupid thing to say! Why can some people just not understand that freedom of speech works both ways?
07 Jun at 1:43 pm
"Hello Sarah, welcome to my blog. Reading your comment just disturbs me! You are the sort of mother that I cringe at. The sort that thinks a baby is an object, a pet to be trained and made to conform to some society-imparted view of what a perfect baby is. You are EVERYTHING I never want to be as a parent."
I never said that Erin was an "animal" that needed to be trained. Yes, I may have said trained but I never meant it in that way. I just meant that you need to stop spoiling your baby just because you are its mommy. Yes, I know it hurts when the baby cries, I wanted to spoil Mark (eldest son) when he was a baby but my husband helped me not spoil him and helped me out with feeding the baby and now Mark is a smart 16 year old.
"How about increased risk of allergies, increased risk of SIDs, increased risk of breast cancers, increased risk of baby girls developing cancer later in life, lower IQ, increased risk of childhood diabetes, increased risk of certain childhood cancers, increased chance of obesity in later life… is that enough or should I go on?"
Nope, I get that your head is in the gutter and you are a pessimist. You only see the bad things in everything. You can give the child nutrients, like carrots and other vegetables, to help decrease the chance of cancer, childhood diabetes, childhood cancers, and you can tell your child what she/he can and cannot eat to help decrease the chance of obesity. All of the factors you stated can be controlled throughout the child’s life not just when the child is a baby. As for the lower IQ, there is nothing wrong with a blonde person. My eldest son, Mark is blonde as can be but he is the brightest child I know. He understands what he has to do in order to graduate high school and he knows that he has to go to college. He gets As ?
"Bottlefeeding isn’t natural, you idiot. It’s an adequate replacement if mum is unable to breastfeed and nothing more."
Bottle feeding is just as natural as a mother being able to breastfeed. It has the same nutrients and everything. It just may not have the quantity of nutrients. Bottles have everything the baby needs to grow up to be living a happy and healthy life.
"Your logic … fails me. The natural weaning age from the breast is around 4-5yrs; are you suggesting that at that point a child should be given a bottle? Or are you one of these fools who thinks that breast milk is only good to 6mo?"
Where did you get that? So, you want your kid to be six and to be just starting using a sippy cup? Usually, by six a child knows how to drink out of a normal cup like us. That is how all of my siblings grew up. There are no actual problems with that. Yes, there are allergies and everything you said earlier, but seriously, what is wrong with having allergies. I have allergies, that means that my baby already has a chance of picking them up through having my DNA. My husband also has extreme allergies, now she has even more of a chance to pick up allergies. There are other reasons as to why babies pick up allergies besides using formula instead of breastfeeding.
"You fucking cunt. You have the nerve to come here, lecturing me for calling a grown woman a twat and you LEFT A BABY TO CRY TO MAKE YOURSELF HAPPY? You have no moral high ground, no fucking grounds to criticise me. Children aren’t animals; that you’d even type the words "train your baby" leave me struggling for words. Argh! Why am I surprised? This is the same person who thinks there’s nothing wrong with formula."
First of all, do you even know what a cunt is? That is a vagina. How can I, a living breathing person, be a cunt. There is no possible way. Please go read a dictionary. Second of all, you sound like the kind of mother that disgusts me. You spoil your baby. I hate kids that are spoiled they take nothing for granted and don’t give the parents respect whatsoever. ?
"Fuck off. Just fuck off you sick bitch. You disgust me."
That is what we are talking about with the suicide stuff. No one wants to be told to "fuck off". I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t want to be told to fuck off. ?
———————————————
Ashley, "5-6 HOURS WITHOUT FOOD? I am 19 years old and /I/ can’t even go 5-6 hours without food! That’s fucking ridiculous!"
If you can’t go 5-6 hours without food in between breakfast, lunch, or dinner then you need to see some kind of therapist because everyone has the possibility of a least going 5 hours without food.
07 Jun at 2:00 pm
You can’t spoil a baby you stupid idiot. They CANNOT comprehend being spoilt at that age.
Wow, you’re so fucking ignorant. I did not just make that shit up about formula for shits and giggles. You’re so wrapped up in not spoiling your baby you have no fucking clue what you’re doing to them, do you? Carrots don’t decrease your child’s chance of childhood cancer you tool.
What am I doing? Wasting my breath trying to explain this to you when you clearly lack basic comprehension of the inferior quality of formula milk.
Try doing some reading:
"“Just One Bottle Won’t Hurt”—or Will It?" – http://drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/startingout/supplement.html
"The deadly influence of formula in America" – http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/go/index.php/227/deadly-influence-formula-in-america
"Suck On This" – http://www.whale.to/b/thomas.html
"Formula for Disaster" – http://www.drmomma.org/2010/03/formula-for-disaster.html
"Breast Cancer Risk Is Reduced by 4% for Each Year of Breastfeeding" – http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2822802a.html
"Breastmilk vs ‘formula’ food" – http://www.theecologist.org/trial_investigations/268337/breastmilk_vs_formula_food.html
"The Risks of Not Breastfeeding for Mothers and Infants" – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/
Oh, and your sleep training?
"Excessive Crying Harmful to Babies" – http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/excessive-crying-harmful-to-babies.html
"The Dangers of Leaving Baby to Cry It Out (CIO)" – http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/12/dangers-of-leaving-baby-to-cry-it-out.html
"Crying It Out Causes Brain Damage" – http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/12/crying-it-out-causes-brain-damage.html
Piss off until you’ve read those and know what the fuck you’re on about.
07 Jun at 2:24 pm
Wow… this is one of the most intense flame-war between two people I’ve read in a long time!
07 Jun at 2:32 pm
Calm down Jem. This isn’t going to help Izzy any. Remember that your staying calm will keep Izzy calm. Sarah & Jennifer are not worth your time or anger. They are ignorant & their babies will show it. Feel the happiness that Izzy will be a happy, loved, & healthy little girl.
07 Jun at 2:33 pm
"5-6 HOURS WITHOUT FOOD? I am 19 years old and /I/ can’t even go 5-6 hours without food! That’s fucking ridiculous!"
I’m totally with Ashley there. I can’t really go without a snack for that long, so how is a baby who has a much smaller stomach, supposed to go for that long?
@Sarah: Of course we could ‘go without food’ for 5hours. But it’s uncomfortable. As we’re not babies anymore, we can deal with it. Jem’s whole point is that babies can’t just deal with it, and so they cry. Since your baby does not speak plan English to you, crying is the only way she can say "Mum, I’m really hungry". You choose to let her cry and do nothing about it. Maybe you ‘train’ your pets like that, but a baby should not be considered a pet.
07 Jun at 2:54 pm
Chillllll. Jem has the right to think want she wants, as does Jennifer.
07 Jun at 4:59 pm
Jesus fuck what planet are you from Sarah Jones?
If you had your attitudes towards caring for babies a few centuries ago your babies would not have survived. Bottles are natural, meaning OF NATURE? Really? And you waited 5-6 hours to feed your babies?!? That sounds like abuse to me. I can understand if the kid is four or five, but a BABY?
07 Jun at 5:05 pm
These comments make me laugh. I guess stupid and/or ignorant people do provide good morning amusement.
… just wish they’d get out of my way in public though. Mofos…
07 Jun at 6:53 pm
@Jinnienn Okada: Stop it with your overly exaggerated, guilt-tripping drivel. I don’t know whether to be angry or amused. You HAVE to know you’re being ridiculous, or the world makes no sense.
I’ve decided the world makes no sense because…
@Sarah Jones: That is one of the most appalling things I’ve heard/read in a while. I’m sure you know what a cunt is, just feeling an itty-bitty ashamed, weren’t you? You had to change the subject for a moment. Don’t compare a baby’s stomach with that of an adult’s, you moron. That’s just common sense.
Geez…
07 Jun at 10:55 pm
@Sarah Jones out of everything I’ve seen you say here, I think I’d label you a child abuser. 5-6 hours w/out food? Yea… totally.
07 Jun at 11:32 pm
Can we fill this place with tiny violins? I think Jinnienn needs a whole symphony of them to go with her guilt-tripping.
And don’t get me started on Sarah. I think she’s easily one of the most idiotic people I’ve encountered on the net.
I’m fairly certain Jem’s comments fall under fair comment and criticism and therefore cannot be charged as libel. As an editor in chief of a weekly university paper, I assure you I know about first amendment laws.
To educate yourselves: http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/F/FairComment.aspx
08 Jun at 1:41 am
Jem,
With a little money, you can have anyone do anything. That also includes them looking you up or following IP addresses. A little money does wonders. So your location isn’t as big of a wall as you seem to think. You really should give me more credit.
""The encouragement is clear. You posted this horribly cruel blog knowing Jennifer was upset about the whole thing. "
See, I’ve read my post, and I don’t see where I mentioned suicide at any point. I therefore have to conclude that you’re talking out of your ass."
I shall elaborate; forgive me for not being clear the first time about this issue.
Given the fact that you knew (obviously) Jennifer was mentally unstable and obviously suicidal you continued to push her into a state of depression. You continued to tweet about her, being sure to let all of your followers know. You are not in control over for their actions, but you are responsible. You knew that they would react in anger and hate and would "speak with her" (thus starting your attack).
When things slowly started to cool down you decided to fire it back up. Making her cry obviously wasn’t enough. So you pushed her face in the dirt and wrote this blog. Since then she has tried to commit suicide multiple times and you, in your ignorance, have continued to encourage this.
Before you ask; "How did I encourage this?"
The fact that you refuse to take the blog down, you refuse to apologize, you refuse to ask your followers and visitors to stop. The mere fact that you refuse to do anything at all, is encouragement enough.
If you don’t understand that, then that’s just a show of ignorance in which case, I can’t help or even try to explain it any further. No one can make you see past your own ignorance but you.
"If my calling Jennifer a fucking twat is against the law, I invite her to contact a solicitor (lawyer)."
No, calling her names is not against the law. It is though, highly immature of you to call a girl almost 10 years younger then you names. Do you call your daughter these nasty names? Will you? I doubt it. I know 12 year olds with a higher maturity level then you, hun.
What is against the law, is the fact that you specifically attacked this young girl. She did not specifically attack you or anyone else. You did. It’s not really a matter of what you did or did not say. It’s about your actions, not your words. This blog, your "advertising" on your twitter about what Jennifer said, all of this is a form of attacking. You are letting people know about a specific person and encouraging them to send hateful messages to this young girl.
Not only is this incredibly immature but it’s against the law. It’s attacking and it’s bullying. It’s illegal on all counts.
Jem, honestly, your ignorance astounds me. Really it does.
===========
Ashley,
The average person can go 72 hours or LONGER without starving. if you can’t go 5 to 6 hours without starving to death then I suggest you contact your doctor right away.
===========
Lauren,
Yes, Freedom of Speech down work both ways. With that said, attacking someone out of "Freedom of Speech" is illegal, which is what Jem is doing here. You have the right to give your opinion, you do not, under any circumstances have the right to specifically attack a person or group. So in this case, Lauren, your Freedom of Speech logic has failed you.
08 Jun at 4:29 am
Overall I don’t understand how someone can blame another for killing themselves. If they’re too fucking weak to suffer the consequences of their own actions they they surely have no business being online. At 16 or 17 years old, a person should be old enough to understand the word "consequence". One year away from being expected to depend on herself and only herself for survival and flourishing and everyone’s acting like she’s still just a damn baby.
For someone who feels so lowly about themselves she sure does have a lot of nerve stirring up shit that will throw her into a deeper depression. Sounds like she should have kept her damn mouth shut to me.
As far as the whole "targeting" thing goes, SHE TARGETED EVERY MOTHER WHO BREAST FEEDS IN PUBLIC BY STARTING THAT DAMN FACEBOOK GROUP. Nobody started a "Lets hate ugly, awkward attention whores" Facebook group, so I don’t see how starting a public group to damn an entire group of women is even remotely equivalent to telling that she’s a jackass for it on a personal website.
SHE STARTED A MEAN AND HATEFUL GROUP WITH HOPES OF PEOPLE CLANNING TOGETHER AND SUPPORTING THE HATE. She wasn’t trying to be nice about it in any way, why the hell should anyone else.
So whoever uses the excuse that it’s against the law to post your opinion because you’ve got 6 years (or whatever) on someone who obviously can not handle themselves (frankly I am tired of spoiled little bitches thinking they can get away with murder and then hiding behind a rock because they’re "only 17") is as much as a dumb ass as the person who is being defended.
08 Jun at 6:55 am
LOL Jinnienn – what the fuck do you need money for? My location is all over the place, you don’t need to bribe someone for it. Oh, and IP addresses? ~~woo scary~~ Here, have mine for free: 87.115.73.11
You know how you keep going on about Jennifer didn’t attack me directly, etc? You must’ve missed last months tweets @ me – oh my, guess she didn’t mention them to you, huh? Like I said, I invite her to contact her lawyer, whatever the goddamn claim. Let’s see how quickly I can smack her claims down.
Jesus christ, it’s dumb fucks r us on here this week, ain’t it?
08 Jun at 3:07 pm
I don’t see the big deal about breastfeeding in public, but one thing I can’t stand is when women don’t even attempt to be the least bit modest about it. How hard is it to place a blanket or burp cloth over the area? These idiots who hang their breasts out are just looking for attention, and they love to get all riled up and flail around yelling "IT’S NATURAL TO FEED MY CHILD!!!!" and shit. Yeah, it is 100% natural to feed your child, but it’s NOT natural to be an exhibitionist just because you didn’t get enough attention from your father as a child and then use your kid as an excuse. And as for the lot of you who act like you’re the first amazing woman in the world to breastfeed…it’s "natural", remember?
08 Jun at 3:39 pm
I don’t use any sort of covering – it just draws attention to what I’m doing (especially as Isabel would be all "OOH BLANKET – PEEKABOO TIME!! :D" and then you’d see more of my nips than either of us would feel comfortable sharing in public).
Not really sure what attention from one’s father has got to do with anything, mind you.
08 Jun at 3:49 pm
I’ve seen women who don’t need a covering. They wear a loose shirt and when the child is attached to their breast you can barely tell because the shirt falls over either side of the childs face, still covering them up. It literally just looks like they’re holding her child and you wouldn’t even be able to tell until you got close and they warn you, "Hey, I am breastfeeding. If it makes you uncomfortable, you’re to close." That’s when you have to either go, "Oh, damn my bad." or play it off like it doesn’t bother you. At no point is it okay to walk up to a woman who is breastfeeding and feel like you have the right to tell her what she can or can not do.
Oh, and just because a boob accidentally flashes in public doesn’t mean that someone is dying for attention either. If you want to think of it in that manner make sure never to wear any compromising clothing ever for the rest of your life. Don’t wear a bikini while playing rough in the water either, accidents happen and you might flash a boob or a butt cheek. Definitely means you’re dying for attention and daddy wasn’t attentive enough.
I think I spend more time arguing this issue then I do posting on my own website. Sad. See what you and your commenters do to me Jem?
08 Jun at 3:51 pm
Lol, me D
08 Jun at 3:52 pm
wtf.. my blog ate my own comment.. this just isn’t on!
I said: "Lol, me and my commenters love it, Theresa ;D"
08 Jun at 4:32 pm
FOOL!!! Your arrogant act of revealing your IP address will be your undoing Jem! Now I shall cause chaos upon thee using 87.115.73.11! MWAH HA HA HA HA HAAAA! *Twirls moustache*
08 Jun at 7:30 pm
@Anna – "It’s NOT natural to be an exhibitionist"? Nudity ranks pretty heigh on my list of what is natural.
@Jinnienn – "You have the right to give your opinion, you do not, under any circumstances have the right to specifically attack a person or group." That is exactly what the girl you’re so determined to defend did. What kind of word do you live in where calling a group of women "dirty" "sick" and "nasty" are not also insults? Basically it’s okay for your friends to do it but no-one else, right?
Also if you have the knowledge that this girl has tried to kill herself why the fuck are you A) broadcasting such private information over the internet and B) not using this time more productively attempting to help someone in a delicate mental state? As someone who has attempted suicide in the past I would be disgusted if anyone ever felt it was their place to inform people of such a personal thing.
09 Jun at 4:24 pm
I was pregnant at 16. I was horrified by public breast feeding. Mainly because I was a teenager awkward with my own body. But once I found out I could not have breastfed my son I was horrified I never got the chance to do it.
I dont mind public breast feeding at all. Unless you just whip it out ?
I dont quite get how people can breastfeed their kids to the age of 3 or older (like my sister in law) – but to each their own.
Randomness – Im fat too & cant stand the fat people wearing too tight of clothes. They do make big sizes people. I got 15 pair of pants to prove it.
12 Jun at 1:34 am
This post is like…epic in every facet. I don’t have kids; I cannot have children naturally, so thus I will never have to breastfeed and even think about this situation myself. I also have been in a state of depression (Bipolar II and now I) since age 11, not to mention gone through psychosis and mania a lot of the time on top of attempting suicide. Wee! So. That said, seeing all these random things about calling Social Services to check on Izzy, "praying to Buddha" (lolol that one got me so bad), pushing a girl into wanting to kill herself, encouraging suicide, and money = getting someone’s IP address, I am just like WHOA. Mind = blown.
Yes, Jem can say what she wants on her blog. Ultimately, even if her words are harsh in some light, it is up to the readers – including the girl (Jennifer?) who this post was about – to determine how they react to Jem’s words. Free speech and laws are irrelevant. If Jennifer, her friends, or random strangers want to allow themselves to be angry and upset over Jem’s comments, that is their own internal decision. It has nothing to do with laws or free speech or a country you live in. It’s called being an intelligent creature that can determine and choose what it wants to do. After that, choosing words and whatnot is an entirely separate thing.
Bringing suicide encouragement, laws, "religion", "medical facts", and all sorts of stuff into this argument is beyond overkill. For readers/strangers to come in and argue such extreme and outrageous points like self-harm and what not and saying Jem is encouraging it is really offensive to even *me* being a 3rd party entirely. :( That is just being malicious and having no good intentions even for Jennifer herself.
That said, if all these friends/supporters of Jennifer really wanted to help the situation and make Jennifer feel better about herself and NOT super depressed for whatever reasons she may have, I do not believe for a nanosecond that debating with Jem continuously and getting so nasty would be helpful. Having the drama/flames escalate over this issue from what Jennifer said is not a productive, positive, or beneficial thing for *her* in the least, I guarantee that. :(
So, that said, I will end with a quote from Gautama Buddha himself that would pretty much sum up what needs to be done by everyone:
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."
12 Jun at 1:22 pm
I got your link from http://www.sugar-baby.org/blog.php?id=35#comments
I think you two are fighting over breastfeeding?
I mostly agree with you but some notes to consider:
There are some country where maniacs are at large and they don’t care if women are doing it for the baby, when they see breasts, they take charge and harass women
Not all women are capable of producing large amount of milk to supply their babies so they resort to using bottle formula
12 Jun at 9:23 pm
I have issues with the fact that some people feel there was illegal activities at play with what happened here. No, it was not illegal – everything that was posted here was available publicly on the internet. Anyone could have found it. Public information was posted about someone’s opinion about this – and then a rebuttal was posted with links back to the public statements.
By the way, calling someone a "twat" is not libel. It is hyperbole. Nobody seriously, actually, realistically thinks anyone is a "twat". Just like if you call someone a "bitch" it is also not libel. "Generally, the non-libelous examples are hyperbole or opinion, while the libelous statements are stating a defamatory fact." (Source: http://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation).
I would probably feel differently about this if someone was calling this person really defamatory statements, saying she was a prostitute, etc. Merely responding to public statements in a public matter is not defamation, is not libel, it isn’t illegal.
If you can’t handle public responses, then don’t post publicly. This isn’t rocket science…
15 Jun at 4:10 am
@Maya
"There are some country where maniacs are at large and they don’t care if women are doing it for the baby, when they see breasts, they take charge and harass women"
Something we should be fighting against, it may not be easy but I don’t think we should surrender. We have to change attitudes.
"Not all women are capable of producing large amount of milk to supply their babies so they resort to using bottle formula"
Companies making formula, aren’t there to save lives to be honest. They are making money and the biggest problem from my point of view is false advertising and claiming that formula is superiour compared to the real thing. But then like I said they are here to make money. Personally I think there should be more support all over the world for new mothers (and mothers in general).
15 Jun at 4:15 am
oh and I’d like to add in previous, that if the formula advertisement would be geared towards mothers with real problems (like painkiller advertisement is geared towards people who have do have pain) instead of all women, I wouldn’t have that big problem with formula.